Alright, I’m writing this in study hall ‘cause I want all the ideas to come fresh out of my head. On Fridays I attend classes at a local school-home school group-church-type-thing. About halfway through the day we have a chapel service a – little bit of singing random hymns, a little bit of teaching on a random topic.
Today we had a guy come up and give his testimony. I don’t have any problem with that part – it took a lot of guts. I was also kinda impressed by the fact that they didn’t go about and find the guy with the “I-did-every-drug-in-existance-and-slept-with-three-hundred-women-at-the-same-time-but-then-I-got-saved” story. (To those of you who know him, yes, I stole that phrase from Coach Hooks.)
What did disconcert me was that, after he was done, the pastor got up and essentially said, “Look at yourself. Do you still dishonor your parents or not respect others the way you should? Well, that means you’re not saved!”
For the rest of the talk, I got the feeling that there were three main things wrong here:
1. Our salvation is dependent on what we do.
All throughout the pastor’s speech, there were these little ideas that kept popping up saying “You’re not saved if you still do this.” Worse, at one point he actually said, “If you still do X, you’re a sinner, and sinners are separated from Christ.
One of the most comforting facets of the Christian faith is the fact that our ability to earn our salvation is equal to our ability to lose it – absolute zero. Nothing, no power of hell, no scheme of man, can ever pluck us from the hand of God. We are saved by a faith that come s not from ourselves, but from the Holy Spirit. While we are still on earth, we are still sinners. We are undergoing the process of sanctification, but it is just that – a process.
2. Being saved instantly leads to perfection.
This cropped up a bit less, but it was still there. The problem with it is that isn’t simply untrue. Again, sanctification – the process of being conformed to the image of Christ and dying more and more unto self – is a process. We are instantly justified, but sanctification lasts for our whole lives.
3. We have to ask Jesus to save us more than once.
This one sort of relates to the first point – once you’re saved, that’s it. You’re saved. No if’s, and’s, or but’s. This point bothered me most because it was something I struggled with a lot when I was younger – this constant doubt of wither or not I was saved. A lot of times I would spend hours just praying, “Lord, save me.” The fact is, our sins have been covered by Christ’s blood. When the Father looks at us, He doesn’t see our filthy lives – He sees His perfect Son.
It’s always extremely dangerous when we make our faith about us rather than Him, because there’s one universal truth to mankind:
We fail.
To God be the Glory,
James,
Fallible, Young, Christian, etc., etc.
ahhh, i completely 100% agree. *sigh* oh the disadvantages to being a different denomination at a baptist school. :-/
ReplyDelete(no offense meant to baptist peoples)
I really get that 'Not Baptist in a Baptist school' thing, in fact I usually hated chapel for that reason. Being Methodist, some of my thoughts of salvation and the like are really different from what gets talked about there. On the topic of 'If you're doing X, you're not saved,' it's wrong... and right. If you say 'I'm saved, now I can keep doing X, but just ask forgiveness late and be ok,' that's not saved, but if you say that when you sin you're immediately disqualified for heaven, that's wrong and not what grace is all about.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThat was a lot. Sorry :)
ReplyDeleteOh, I totally wasn't trying to say that this was what all Baptists believe. Sorry if ti came across that was =P I was just pointing out some of the major fallacies in what he said on Friday.
ReplyDeleteNo, you didn't. The comments sounded a bit like the general thought was that the questionable ideas were a denomination thing, but I'm pretty sure it was just a misunderstanding or odd wording or something. I definitely don't believe any of those things.
ReplyDeleteI'm not offended, I promise :)
Wait, wait, wait - hold on. Massive screeching stop. "You may ask multiple times before God actually saves you" - did you really mean that?
ReplyDeleteI mean...just asking doesn't necessarily save you. I asked to be saved many times before I was saved. My brother asked to be saved multiple times and he openly is not even still. Without genuine repentance and faith, asking in itself is kind of powerless.
ReplyDeleteBut...I've had some pretty messy experiences with bloggy/Facebooky theological debates, so if you would like to continue this'n, perhaps we could use a different medium. I suggest speech :)
oh! i think i understand what she's saying.
ReplyDeletea lot of people will "ask" but not really live it and it doesnt make a change at all. it isn't the asking that saves u it's where ur heart is. so it's not like your heart is in the right place and u keep begging before He finally, grudgingly, decides to allow you to be saved. it's just a matter of getting your heart in the right place.
is that right, allison?
I think its better to put exact quotes than say 'Essentially he said this'
ReplyDeleteEssentially this blog post defamed a pastor and the entire baptist denomination as staunch believers in radical doctrine point A, B, and C.
See my point?
Also, I think its better to go directly to the person in question and discuss this with them, as opposed to blogging about it. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but when it is about a person...mmm.
Allison, I agree with you. How many times have you been to VBC and they say 'Just say you love Jesus and he'll save you' and then you say it. Does that save you? I'd die on the hill that it doesn't.
As to the points, I know for a fact from speaking directly to this person on multiple occasions that he doesn't believe any of that.
Not trying to start something here, but give neither credit nor criticism where they are not due, nor place intentions in people's hearts, thoughts in people's minds, or words in their mouths.
Ha ha. See, I was expecting *all* the comments to be something like that =P
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, this blog post isn't about a man. It isn't about a denomination. It isn't about trying to defame anyone or trying to question what they believe. I don't believe that he really believes the message he communicated that Friday. This is just about correcting what was *said* to the entire student body - we go to our brother privately when he is living in sin. I don't think this falls under that category.
This is the problem with over-emotion. A lot of times, when you're emotional, your logic stops functioning correctly and you don't really THINK before you speak. I didn't do this on a whim - I made sure that other people had heard the same thing I had heard before I said anything about this. So this isn't about my opinion on him as a person (you'll notice the lack of describing adjectives) but purely and totally about what was said.
Like I said, I don't think he meant to communicate what he did. But that's a moot point, because he *did* communicate it. So I felt led to write about it - not to stir up dissention, but to correct something I thought was wrong.
As to the accepting Jesus thing... that deserves its whole thread, 'cause that opens that nice little can of worms we like to call predestination =P